14 Comments

Can Non-LDS Obtain Salvation? Of Course!

I’ve been having a heated discussion over at Christian Forums.  Someone there linked to my article on Theosis.  I was a bit nervous, as these types of forums can be not only heated, but strongly biased against our church.   I decided to jump into the fray, and while there are some people there with some strong knowledge of ancient church history and the Bible, there are quite a few that seem intent on distorting and misrepresenting LDS theology.  So, I don’t really recommend participating there.

I did learn that it’s not just the LDS that are picked on, so at least they have that going for them.  When I complained that another person by the handle of Pheobe Ann posted a distorted view of LDS theology, another person there by the handle Skylark said,

Originally Posted by skylark1 View  Post

If you think that this title is sensational, you should check out some of the headlines in General Theology. There is one titled “I can have sex with the pastor’s wife and still go to heaven.” (The original poster was not actually claiming this!) So far, it has 935 posts, and 7946 views!
I responded

Skylark,

I find that title heinous. I agree with you that Phoebe’s title is relatively benign compared to your example. If such sensationalism is considered normal here, perhaps I am in the wrong place. I thought this was supposed to be a place of discussion, not a place where Tabloid headlines dominate.

On the flip side, some of the threads that I [Skylark] have started about a specific passage of scripture with only a straight forward title has received few views or posts.

I hear you, and sympathize. However, I would much rather have a more scholarly discussion, than waste times with tabloid discussions.

So, Phoebe Ann’s post quoted D&C  84:74-95, along with Pheobe’s commentary that “Those who reject the LDS message here on earth seem to be in a lot of trouble.”  Phoebe believes that the LDS believe that only LDS will obtain salvation (or in Mormon parlance, Celestial glory.)  Phoebe is a former Mormon, but apparently her grasp of Mormon theology is quote distorted.  Currently, she is not a member of any denomination.  She believes that faith in Christ is all that is needed to get into Heaven; she believes all works are unnecessary, and she believes that true Christians are in and outside of many denominations.  I thought you might enjoy a few of our exchanges.  She asked me,

Is faith in Christ not so important after all?

Faith in Christ is very important, but it is not the “end-all” that New Dawn made it sound at first. New Dawn made a clarification, and I understand the position better now. I am glad that New Dawn doesn’t think that someone can profess in Christ and then commit murder in a Crusade and be saved. I agree with that position. I am still trying to understand New Dawn and your position on Hindus, and I still haven’t received an answer saying “Hindus are all damned”, or “some Hindus will get into heaven.” I am sure you understand that Mormons don’t simply believe in only heaven and hell; we believe that honorable men (Hindu or not) will receive some sort of glory, perhaps more than a “faithful” Crusader who engaged in war crimes. I’d like to get a clearer understanding of New Dawn and Phoebe’s position, but it seems like neither of you answer the question directly and make your position clear. I hope I have made my position clear.

Why do LDS send missionaries to Hindu homes?

I’m surprised by the question, because I think you know the answer: to bring the Good News of the Gospel of Christ, and help them obtain salvation and eternal life.

I’m getting confused about why you think Christ died on the cross. What did He actually accomplish by that? Does His blood save individuals who come to Him or does it save all people regardless of what god they serve?

As a former member, I am surprised that you are asking this question. Christ’s resurrection is freely given to all men–Christian, Non-Christian, Muslim, Hindu, etc. All receive this gift that Christ gave us by dying on the Cross and being resurrected the 3rd day.

The gift of Eternal life is another matter. Christ’s blood grants eternal life only to those who have accepted him as a true believer. This gift is not available to Hindus or believers of another god.

Originally Posted by Phoebe Ann View  Post

Would God welcome only LDS into the Celestial Kingdom and relegate all non-LDS to other kingdoms?

This seems to be the point of your very first post here. I can’t find it now, but I remember you said something to the effect that God does not care about denominations. I agree. Certainly Jesus, Peter, Paul, Moses, Adam, Noah, and Abraham were not LDS, so NO, God does not welcome only LDS into the Celestial Kingdom. I feel assured that all of these men will be in the Celestial Kingdom, and I believe that Esther, Ruth, Mary, Mary Magdalene, and Abish will be in the Celestial Kingdom as well.

“And then be saved” is not the problem. The question is, “Would a saved person go out and murder someone?” The answer is, “No.”

I like this, and agree with it whole-heartedly.

And I’m still trying to understand why LDS believe that accepting Christ isn’t a requirement for salvation.

Well, the LDS believe that accepting Christ is a requirement for salvation, so there’s your problem. You believe something incorrect. Hopefully I have corrected your incorrect belief.

QUIZ:

1. Does God punish sinners?

Yes, but he doesn’t always do it in this life.

2. Does He have that right?

Absolutely.

3. Which humans haven’t sinned?

None. Romans 3:23″for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.”

4. Did Jesus die for sinners or only for the righteous?

Jesus died for both.

5. Who is condemned?

I’m not sure I understand the point of the question. I think you are referring to Romans 14:23 “But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.” If this is what you are referring to, then all sinners are condemned.

However, those that partake of Jesus atonement are not condemned. As Jesus told the woman caught in adultery in John 8:10-11,

When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? 11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Okay, is that why LDS send missionaries to my doorstep and my Mennonite neighbor’s doorstep?

Maybe they thought you looked nice and wanted to talk to you! I think you know the answer to that question, but I’ll oblige. They would like to help you become a better Christian. (It appears you think your version of Christianity is superior to the Missionaries version–am I wrong? “yes” or “no” please.)

It is God who changes a person’s heart and guides His adopted child in paths of righteousness for His name’s sake. Just because someone professes faith in Christ does not mean he has been born again. Works are not a requirement for salvation. They are a result of salvation. My faith and works are not pulling the cart. The faith is pulling me to do good works.

I have no qualms with what you just said. This whole grace/works argument is much ado about nothing. It seems to be a heated argument of which came first–the chicken or the egg, and I think the whole argument is silly and pointless. A person with true faith naturally wants to do the works of God. Too many Mormons argue this point and it is silly.

If you knew that faith in Christ is a requirement for salvation, you certainly would not ask the question. Remember the above question and answer?

Yes, I remember the above question and answer, and I hope I have answered clearly. I hope you will answer “yes” or “no” as well to my questions.

First of all, the Bible doesn’t talk about partially or fully accepting Christ. See John 3:18. Second, glory is not promised to those who have not been justified and justification comes only through faith in Christ. See Romans 5:1. Third, a Christian would not murder. “But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.” Romans 8:9

I agree.

John 3:18 says that sinners are damned until they come to Christ, the Light. Christ came to save sinners; the requirement for salvation is faith in Christ. So we cannot single out Hindus. It is unbelievers who don’t receive salvation. My family of origin are unbelievers. They have never been and are not Hindus. You, yourself, said that LDS missionaries visit Hindus “to bring the Good News of the Gospel of Christ, and help them obtain salvation and eternal life.” You say, “Christ’s blood grants eternal life only to those who have accepted him as a true believer. This gift is not available to Hindus or believers of another god.”

Gosh, I feel like you’ve almost made it clear here, and I think I agree with everything you just said. Am I correct that you believe Hindus are damned?

As you know, Mormons believe that there are 3 degrees of Glory. Those who accept Christ fully will inherit the highest glory, but a good Hindu who does not fully accept Christ will not obtain the highest glory. This means the person who fully accepts Christ is in the Celestial Kingdom. To be in the Celestial Kingdom means salvation. See D&C 76:50-70 for more information. The Hindu will be in either the Terrestrial or Telestial Kingdom. Terrestrial and Telestial Kingdoms do not equal salvation. See D&C 76:71-119–it is much too long to quote here.

Now you may be wondering about what I said when I said “Hindu who does not fully accept Christ“.

Following Jesus death on the cross, many have wondered where he went, because he did not ascend to the Father. For example, we know that Jesus appeared to Mary after she discovered the empty tomb. Apparently Mary tried to embrace Jesus. (Who wouldn’t?) The Gospel of John chapter 20 verse 17 records, Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father.

So if Jesus didn’t go to the Father after he died, many have wondered where he went during this 3 day period? Paul in his Epistle to Peter tells us that Jesus visited those who were disobedient in the days of Noah. 1 Peter 3:18-20 says,

For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,)
Furthermore, 1 Peter 4:6 expands on this topic further:

For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

Paul discusses this topic again in 1 Cor 15:22-31. I find verses 22 and 29 most interesting.

For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

29 Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30 And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour?

31 I die every day–I mean that, brothers–just as surely as I glory over you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32 If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus for merely human reasons, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.”

33 Do not be misled: “Bad company corrupts good character.”

Christ taught the dead who were disobedient in the days of Noah. Since Christianity didn’t exist in Noah’s day, these people were certainly non-Christians. More than likely, they were polytheistic. There is a good chance that they had some beliefs in common with our hypothetical Hindu. If a Hindu never hears of Christ in this life, would a loving god damn the Hindu who never heard of Christ? Mormon theology says no. If I understand your theology correctly, the Hindu is damned to Hell, because only true, faithful Christians will be saved.

Your quiz says all men are sinners, including Hindus. God condemns all sinners. Only those who accept Christ will not be condemned. If a Hindu does not accept Christ, the Hindu is condemned to damnation. Therefore, all Hindus are damned, because by definition they worship a different god, and have no faith in Christ. Does this accurately represent your beliefs? (“yes” or “no” would be very helpful here.)

Mormons, on the other hand, believe that Christ will teach to the Hindu as it says in 1 Peter chapter 3 and 4. If this Hindu accepts Christ, he will be baptized as it says in 1 Cor 15. Therefore, Mormons do not believe all Hindus will be damned to Hell.

So, the Celestial Kingdom will be full of people of MANY denominations, and it is not limited to LDS only. This belief fully refutes your erroneous point in your opening post that makes the assumption that non-LDS will obtain “wo” and damnation. It also answers your question,

Originally Posted by Phoebe Ann View  Post

Would God welcome only LDS into the Celestial Kingdom and relegate all non-LDS to other kingdoms?

I remind you that even if a Hindu chooses not to accept Christ, then the Hindu will not obtain the Celestial Kingdom. We believe that the same sociality exists in the next life as it does here. If people rejected Christ in Jerusalem 2000 years ago, they have the opportunity to reject him in the spirit prison as well. It is not a slam dunk that someone will accept Christ in spirit prison.

Even if the Hindu rejects Christ in spirit prison, the good Hindu does have an opportunity to receive a higher glory than a Christian that murders in God’s name. This means that a good Hindu could potentially be in the Terrestrial Kingdom, while the Christian guilty of war crimes enters the lower glory Telestial Kingdom.

If I understand your position correctly, you don’t have this “gradient” scale. Either man goes to Heaven or Hell. Hindus have no shot at Heaven, because they do not believe in Christ. Plundering Christian Crusaders probably will go to Hell because they are not “true believers.” If my understanding of your position is correct, then all Hindus are damned. Is this correct?

As a former member, I am surprised that you are asking this question. (Perhaps you do not understand LDS theology as good as you think you do.) Christ’s resurrection is freely given to all men–Christian, Non-Christian, Muslim, Hindu, etc. All receive this gift that Christ gave us by dying on the Cross and being resurrected the 3rd day. (This gift of resurrection is given to all, but is not considered salvation. Hindus will be resurrected, along with Christians.)

The gift of Eternal life is another matter. Christ’s blood grants eternal life only to those who have accepted him as a true believer. This gift is not available to Hindus or believers of another god. (Eternal life means salvation in the Celestial Kingdom.)

I hope that answers your question. Apostle Russell M Nelson gave an address on salvation and exaltation in April 2008 if you would like more information. See his talk titled Salvation and Exaltation.

Phoebe asked,

“But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.” Romans 8:9

If a person does not have the Spirit of Christ/has not been born again of the Spirit, he is not a Christian. If a person belongs to Christ, he/she is being led by the Holy Spirit. Churches don’t save. Christ saves.

I agree. Churches don’t save. Christ saves.

So, what about the rest of you.  Did I preach false doctrine?  Can non-LDS enter the Celestial Kingdom?  Do churches save?

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14 comments on “Can Non-LDS Obtain Salvation? Of Course!

  1. You are correct. D&C 76 expressly states that all are saved and all accept Christ — however after being saved some may fall away by openly putting Christ to shame. They can forfeit salvation. All are saved, telestial, terretrial and celestial through faith in Christ and at the time of bowing the knee and confessing Christ. That is it — the pure doctrine of salvation. Not all are saved in this life — some wait until the second resurrection.

    The point of the gospel is to create a relationship that moves beyond the moment of justification by faith (or salvation); to move us to fellowship with Christ through growth in the process of sanctification and, for those who have faith in Christ and are baptized and grow in Christ by keeping his commandments (really just the command to love which summarizes all of the commandments) to glorification in the fullness of Christ’s glory. The Church creates the covenant community of the kingdom of God that is found fully glorified in Christ.

    I discuss this at length in the 2nd volume of Exploring Mormon Thought (though I’m sure you don’t have to read that to “get it” — all you need is D&C 76). You are also right that Phoebe’s grasp of the gospel is about a kindergarten level.

  2. Those are tough questions you pose at the end.
    “Can non-LDS enter the Celestial Kingdom?”
    This question is asked as if the existence of a Celestial Kingdom is a foregone conclusion. If the existence of the Celestial Kingdom is in fact a foregone conclusion, then the answer to the next question:
    “Do churches save?”
    would have to be yes if you take into consideration that one cannot enter the Celestial Kingdom without the saving ordinances which are only found in the LDS church.

    If there is a Celestial Kingdom, then the LDS church is true and the saving ordinances are required.

    Personally I don’t see how you can condemn someone for their beliefs…believing one thing over another is not a sin. It is a belief, yet we kill and judge over this. It is one of the most ridiculous things we do as humans.

  3. Seems to me to be mere semantics. The only place one can receive the all saving ordinances is the temple, but it is not the ordinance per se that saves, but rather sanctification through the Holy Spirit of Promise. One can receive the ordinance without being sanctified. Nonetheless, one can only receive all those ordinances through the Church (at this time). So, churches help, but do not save. If being LDS is defined as fully accepting the gospel and receiving the ordinances, then only LDS will enter the Celestial Kingdom, many of whom may have been Hindu at one time.

  4. This is all a little too subjective for me.

  5. Blake, thanks for stopping by. Your book sounds interesting; perhaps I’ll add to my long book list and do a review!

    My question is a paraphrase of Phoebe’s question, “Would God welcome only LDS into the Celestial Kingdom and relegate all non-LDS to other kingdoms?” Since Phoebe is a former Mormon, she is equating the LDS Celestial Kingdom with her “protestant” concept of eternal life, so that’s why it’s a “foregone conclusion.”

    I agree with Joe that it is a bit of a semantics argument. As Bishop Rick said, “one cannot enter the Celestial Kingdom without the saving ordinances which are only found in the LDS church.” However, as I said in the post, all ancient prophets weren’t LDS (Noah, Abraham, Job) and will be in the Celestial Kingdom. For that matter, Jesus was never even a Christian–he was a Jew, and we believe that he will be in the Celestial Kingdom. If our church is a restoration of the ancient church, then we won’t be referred to as LDS in the next life, we’ll be called Christians or Believers. Even the Jew Moses will be referred to as a Christian. And the idea that many non-LDS (such as Hindus) will have the temple work performed in this life, means that there will be many non-LDS in the Celestial Kingdom, because most people in the between the years of 33 AD and 1836 AD (Kirtland Temple dedication) never had the opportunity to participate in temple ordinances. The real question is whether these are God’s temple ordinances or LDS temple ordinances. You can see that the emphasis on the ordinances changes with the focus on whether one believes that they are God’s ordinances or LDS ordinances.

    Yes, Bishop Rick, I agree that condemning and killing based on belief is one of the most ridiculous things we do as humans. I didn’t include it in my exchange here, but I made a big emphasis that God is to condemn, not man.

  6. MH: I fear that Pheoebe gets neither Protestant thought nor LDS thought accurate about salvation if you have accurately represented her. Salvation for Protestants means that one doesn’t go to hell — to be saved is saved from death and damnation and servitude to the devil. However, reward still depends on works of love. In Protestant (Reform) thought justification by grace = being saved from hell and punishment. It does not = sanctification and glorification — which both depend on a synergy works and reward for what we do and grace. It depends on part on the reward received in the judgment according to our works.

    For Mormons salvation means being saved from death, hell and servitude to the devil. We receive such salvation as a matter of grace at the time we bow the knee to confess Christ. It doesn’t differ a whole lot from the Protestant view. It does not mean that we grow in the process of sanctification toward deification (which, it turns out, is a lot like the Protestant doctrine of glorification). Being in the celestial kingdom is result of judgment of our works based on the natural results of the kind of law we live.

    We can agree that participation in the celestial kingdom requires abiding a celestial law, which requires living the law of love (and receiving the results that follow naturally from loving or unloving conduct) and participating in the exalting ordinances that lead us to be identified with and found in Christ. Because these exalting ordinances are performed for the dead, all kinds of those who remain non-Mormons to the end of mortal life may end up being exalted in the celestial kingdom — tho I imagine we would say that if they freely accept these ordinances they become Mormon in the after-life thus making the issue one that consistently requires all to be “Mormon” in this limited sense to be found in the celestial kingdom.

    You suggest that the “real question is whether these are God’s temple ordinances or LDS temple ordinances.” I see that as a false dichotomy. These ordinances are both God’s and also LDS temple ordinances.

  7. Blake, one of the most frustrating things about Pheobe is she refuses to answer questions about her beliefs, but merely points about “flaws” of Mormonism. I’ve tried to represent her the best I could from the points she made, but I admit that I don’t fully understand her position. I’ve tried to show her where she’s hypocritical in her beliefs; I think that is why she is purposely vague so she can’t be “nailed” on a particular topic.

    I also agree that it is a false dichotomy. Unfortunately, most forum participants see it that way, so I tried to frame it in a way they would understand. But I agree with your point completely.

  8. I was surprised to come across this blog post while searching on google for something else. Since my name was mentioned, I would like to clrify several points.

    I was not condoning the title that I have been quoted as mentioning. I did not participate in that discussion, which as awful as the title is appears to be a more congenial discussion concerning the belief of once saved always saved.

    The title that was called sensational is “If you reject the LDS message. . . ” I do not find that to be sensational. I only mentioned the other title to point out what I do consider to be a sensational title. In no way whatsoever was I trying to condone it. Nor do I believe that such titles are the norm for the mentioned forum.

  9. The concept of “Mormon salvation” is traced back to the book of mormon. The BoM is our core doctrine of the church- it is our doctrine. The BoM speaks specifically that in order to gain salvation from “hell” he or she must believe in Christ and become born again through the waters of baptism. There really is no other way salvation is merited to an individual outside of these strict guidelines. This of course brings up how “damnation” is defined. Contrary to many popular mormon beliefs, damnation doesn’t mean to be “stopped in ones progress”, especially in a lower kingdom. We must go back and realize how Joseph Smith used the word, not more modern mormon scholars. Joseph Smith used the word in very specific protestant terms. “Damantion” as used by Joseph Smith in translating the BoM always meant to be “condemned to hell” or the state of the “condemned in hell”. This is how pretty much all Christian churches have always used the word. That in mind, when the BoM refers to “salvation”, it means to be saved from the damnation of hell, not from a lower glory of heaven.

    The problem of interpreting D&C section 76 is that it isn’t very specific in labeling what constitutes the saved or the damned, or for that matter- the 3 kingdoms of glory. It wasn’t until much later in Joseph Smiths life that we get the full view of the plan of salvation. That full view was expounded upon in the temple as now part of the “endowment” ceremony. There we learn much of what BoM prophets were stating- the strict adherence to all of the gospel ordinances in order to be saved from hell. In the temple we learn that the plan of salvation carries us through both the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms before we are able to merit “salvation” in the celestial kingdom. The temple thus clarifies without any doubt that we are now in the “telestial kingdom”.

    So anyways, it is a lot more complicated than we suppose. In reality, there is no salvation from hell without being a member of Christ’s church- the church of the firstborn. So then, no one who is not baptized into this the Lords church will ever be saved from the eternal damnation of hell- and that my friends, is exactly what the entire BoM teaches us- our core doctrinal beliefs!

  10. Skylark,

    Thanks for stopping by and clarifying. I didn’t intend to make it sound like you condoned sensational titles, and I did find you one of the more reasonable people on that forum. However, I felt that most of the titles in the LDS forum were sensational, so I will disagree with you on that point. I didn’t venture into other areas. It is my opinion that Christian Forums is a bit like a rowdy junior high cafeteria–it was not at all surprising that food fights break out constantly. I prefer conversation with those not interested in blatant distortions of other people’s beliefs.

    While there were quality people with a good theological background such as yourself, I found that many people seemed to be picking a fight. Not one to back down myself, I found the forum much too combative for my tastes, and I found certain people sneaky, evasive, and distorted in their attempts to talk about the LDS faith. (I’m sure you know I’m referring to Phoebe, but she is not the only one–Dale had a distorted view as well.) It bothers me that Rufus seemed to back her up, because he seemed a bit more reasonable that she was, and I think Rufus has been misled. But, I guess we’re all entitled to our opinions anyway. I would welcome you to stick around here if you would like some interfaith dialogue–I could learn a thing or 2 from a polite person such as yourself.

    Rob, I agree with everything you said. Most churches claim to be “The Church of the Firstborn”, or at least the closest incarnation, which is precisely the reason there was so much contention at Christian Forums as we all jockeyed to position ourselves as the “Church of the Firstborn.”

  11. Rob: I agree with most of what you say; but I disagree that D&C 76 isn’t clear about “what constitutes being saved or damned.” It is pellucidly clear in my reading of it. To be damned is to suffer the wrath of punishment. Here is what it says:

    “104 These are they who suffer the wrath of God on earth.
    105 These are they who suffer the vengeance of eternal fire.
    106 These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work.”

    Those in the telestial kingdom suffer this wrath and punishment until the second resurrection when they kneel to confess Christ. To be saved is to be delivered from this wrath and punishment — as it states:

    “109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;
    110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;
    111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared.”

    So damnation equal suffering the wrath of punishment. Salvation is being delivered from this wrath. All are saved by the grace of Christ when they bow the knee and confess Christ. All receive reward according to their works based on the judgment according to works. BTW, judgment is always, in all scripture, according to works.

    I believe the Book of Mormon teaches the same view of salvation and judgment according according to works. We are redeemed from death, hell and servitude to the devil when we confess Christ and are redeemed from the Fall in Book of Mormon parlance.

  12. Blake,

    Yes but there is no “salvation” without repentance and baptism. This is what section 76 is unclear about. A general reading and understanding of section 76 leaves one believing salvation is possible without repentance and baptism (as per telestial). Those who bow and confess to Christ, who also go on to recieve a reward as mentioned is in reference to receiving an inheritance in the celestial kingdom. Joseph Smith did indeed see the telestial kingdom inhabitants. Perhaps though, he did not realize that he was just seeing our earth. This would explain why he mentions both whoremongers and saints when he sees the vision of the telestial.

  13. I am a convert to the Church: baptized and confirmed on April 6, 1997 and after a year of active membership, I was ordained to the high Melchizedek Priesthood on
    March 1, 1998 and was Endowed in the Hong Kong LDS Temple on May 22, 1998 before serving a valiant mission in France, from July 1998 till July 2000.

    I was sealed to my wife, Now Eternal Ex wife, on Mune 2001. My daughter was born in the covenant and despite the painful divorce that I suffered, I am enduring and I am confident that I will endure to the end. The Lord God Jehovah, who is Jesus Christ, the God of Israel, will give to me a Special, beautiful woman as my future Eternal Queen and I expect that I Elder Francis Vessigault will gain the Highest degree of Eternal Godhood and Exaltation in the Celestial kingdom as a Divine Parent and Father to my future innumerable spirit offspring.

    As for what was said before, I am familiar with Doctrine and Covenants 76.
    In the Resurrection, only Celestial men and women who are Glorified and Exalted as Eternaly married Kings and Queens will become like Our Exalted glorified and Resurrected Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother.
    The Son of God is Exalted as King of kings and Lord of lords of all exalted eternal kings and Queens and I know that Christ relationship with Mary, Martha and Mary Magdalene was not accidental but sacred and Eternal.
    Heavenly Father Eloheim and His Celestial Queens are eternally making spirit children and the Lord Jesus Christ not only was baptized, but He received from His Father God, the Priesthood and was Endowed and very importantly, these women, Mary,Martha and Mary Magdalene are the Eternal wives and Queens of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, the Almighty Jehovah.
    Next below, Michael the Archangel is known by the name of Adam in Eden. Our first parents Adam and His beautiful Wife Eve will share eternal Glory with her husband. Adam and Eve are Celestial King and Queen under Christ the LORD.

    Only in the Celestial kingdom, men and women will Rule as married Gods and Goddesses, as Eternal Kings and Queens, but lukewarm people in the Terrestrial degree of heaven and resurrected wicked people in the lowest telestial degree of heaven will be denied Eternal life which is family life in the presence of Our Almighty Exalted Supreme God Eloheim, the Father of all.
    The wicked in the telestial kingdom will be the overwhelming majority of mankind, billions of billions of people in the telestial world, denied of the Presence of Eloheim the Father and His son Jesus Christ as divine Gods but the wicked will be servants of Gods: but where God and Christ dwell, they cannot come, Worlds without end (DC76:112).

  14. I have always belived that as long as people live up to the precepts of there belif system that they will have a chance of being saved in the CK.

    To paraphrase a scripture. “those who are not under the law are under no condemnation”.

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