I keep getting ideas from all over. Here is a list of ideas I have had, but haven’t gotten around to for about a year. If you have any ideas for me, please post them here in the comments.
- Richard Bushman Interview – Now transcribed!
- Sunstone – I have several posts on this already
- Splinter Groups – I have a new category on Restorationist Groups
- Trouble with 3 Degrees of Glory
- Nephi’s Harbor
- Adam and Eve (and Lilith)
- The Holy Ghost
- The Exodus
Mormon Heretic 
Don’t forget Balaam since he always seems to come up in our discussions.
Edit on 10/4/2009 by MH: Here is the new post on Balaam.
Finding truth without revelation.
If Socrates were placed in the middle of Times square – He would never be able to find the whole truth unless he had assistance from the present day time frame.
Was Jesus a heretical Jew trying to make change within his own religion or was he the literal son of God, come to initiate Christianity? Or, did he even exist.
What is the purpose of the saving ordinances?
Who is the Great and Abominable Church?
Edit by MH: I did a post on the Catholic Church
The great flood…global, localized or myth.
Who really ran the church after Jesus; Peter, Paul, or Mary?
Just threw Mary in to round out the discussion.
Edit by MH. It was James, as I mentioned in this post.
@Bishop Rick
I thought you were too young to appreciate that folk group. 😀
I would actrually like to understand more about how the LDS view ordinances. I’d thought about putting something on the to-do-list for my own blog posts, since the CofChrist view is so different, but realized I know way too little about LDS views on the subject, and don’t expect I’m ever going to get a temple recommend.
I can’t believe I forgot about Balaam–he does come into our conversation quite a bit. Bishop Rick–some great ideas, especially the flood and who ran the church. I think Mary Magdalene is an interesting figure. I also want to point out that some people believe that Jesus brother James ran the church–not Peter, so that’s definitely an interesting topic.
FireTag, I think there is much misperception about LDS ordinances within the church, so don’t feel left out in not fully understanding that one. I’ll definitely have to give that some thought.
FT: One’s parents have a larger influence on musical taste than one might expect.
Can’t wait for the discussion on Adam and Eve.
I always found Frasier’s wife strangely attractive.
I don’t know how to label this. Is it possible to come up with a proclamation, in tribute, to the “One God” worshiped by those of Islam, Judiasm, and Christianity – that describes attributes that all 3 agree on?
Example: All 3 agree that Adam, Abraham, and Moses were real and spoke with God.
In deference to Christianity, both Islam and Christianity believe that Jesus was a great man. One proclaims Jesus to be a prophet and other, a member of the “Godhead”. The Jews recognize Jesus as a great Rabbi. There must be some words, spoken by Jesus, that all 3 agree on.
The proclamation would acknowledge that there are differences between the 3 that only God can resolve. But the proclamation would be a tribute to the “One God”, containing all information known, that all 3 of these religions agree with.
@Bishop Rick
I want to respond to your questions, “Was Jesus a heretical Jew trying to make change within his own religion or was he the literal son of God, come to initiate Christianity? Or, did he even exist.” I’ll address them one at a time.
Jesus was a Jew, but not heretical, and not trying to make change within his own religion. He was and is the literal Son of God. He did not, however, during his mortal time on earth, initiate Christianity. When Adam and Eve were in the garden called Eden they were taught by their (and our) Heavenly Father. When they were cast out of the Garden of Eden, there were shut out from the presence of God the Father, but were taught by the other two Beings Who comprise the Godhead, namely; Jehovah (later known as Jesus Christ from His birth onward), and the Holy Ghost (sometimes referred to as the Holy Spirit, but in some instances the term “Holy Spirit” refers to our Heavenly Father’s Spirit or His beloved Son, Jesus Christ’s Spirit). As to the existence of Jehovah/Jesus Christ/Son of God/Redeemer/Master (or one of about 100 other names or titles), He did and does exist. It is well known among all Jewish sects that such a Person lived in what is referred to as the “meridian of time” (some 2,000 years ago), but almost all Jews acknoledge Him not as the Son of God and our Savior (they won’t recognize Him as the Redeemer until He puts His foot down upon Mount Olivet and the Mount split, wherein will be a valley they will flee into in order to escape the enemy armies of 2 million), but as a Rabbi, a great teacher, ans some go so far as to say He was even a prophet. I hope this helps. If you have further questions just email them to carrinsr@gmail.com with the subject always as “I have questions about your beliefs”. If the subject is not preficed in this manner, I will probably delete the email as spam, and never open it. Thanks for your questions.
@Bishop Rick
The purpose of saving ordinances is self explanatory; ordinances which have to do with sone’s salvation. I prefer the word “exaltation” as opposed to “salvation”. There are two types of salvation. One is physical, the other; spiritual. Concerning ordinances, as the word is plural, so are the performances. In other words, there is more than one. The first ordinance for spiritual salvation is baptism. After baptism the next ordinance is the laying on of hands for receiving the Holy Ghost and being confirmed a member of the Savior’s Church. The most often performed individual ordinance after baptism and confirmation is the partaking of the sacrament, that is, bread in remembrance of His body bruised, and then water in rembrance of His life-blood shed. However, there are several other ordinances within the Savior’s Church, all pertaining to spiritual growth leading to the perfecting of those called to be saints. I hope this answeres your question.
@Bishop Rick
The great flood was global. The earth was completely immersed under water. The earth was actually baptized by immersion. Just prior to the great flood those who were righteoes were lifted up into heaven along with their spiritual leader, Enoch. The city of Enoch was lifted up into heaven, as mentioned in the Old Testament. The city was very large, comprising roughly the same area as what we know today as the Gulf of Mexico. That entire city, along with its inhabitants, will be returned to earth at the beginning of the millenium. After the righteoes were removed from the earth, then the floods came and destroyed the wick. Only Noah, his wife, and their three sons, Shem, Ham and Japeth, and their wives, were saved in the ark, along with other species of life. I hope this answers your question.
The Savior continued to run His Church through three of His apostles, Peter being the Savior’s chosen prophet, with James and John His two counselors. One of the brothers of the Savior was placed in charge of seeing to the welfare of Mary. This was done while the Savior was on the cross. I hope this answers your question.
David:
Thank you. I have no further questions at this time.
@Bishop Rick
Specifically, the “Great and Abominable Church” is the “Holy Roman Catholic Church” which, after a period of about 200 years after the ascension of the Savior after His resurrection, supplanted those who held proper priesthood authority to preach the Savior’s gospel in its purity, to baptise, to confirm, and to do all things whatsoever within the Savior’s Church as He had directed. the process of removing the Savior’s Church and replacing it with the Great and Abominable Church was accomplished by Satan influencing evil designing and wicked men to destory the Savior’s authorized leaders, and replacing them with his own organization, which organization I have clearly identified herein. I hope this answers your question.
UPDATE Mar 17, 2013: David, I completely disagree. See my post on Catholocism.
This from Firetag: “I would actrually like to understand more about how the LDS view ordinances. I’d thought about putting something on the to-do-list for my own blog posts, since the CofChrist view is so different, but realized I know way too little about LDS views on the subject, and don’t expect I’m ever going to get a temple recommend.”
Since you typed you don’t expect you’re ever going to get a temple recommend, I suppose you are either LDS and not progressing spiritually in order to obtain one, or you are not LDS but have been taught something about LDS temple recommends. Not knowing which, I will take the more simple road and presume you are not LDS. So here is my answer:
LDS view ordinances as part of our Heavenly Father’s plan for our eternal happiness. But He also has commandments (sometimes referred to as laws) which we must also obey. Keeping His commandments and performing His ordinances, regardless of how many commandments and ordinances there may be, are absolutely essential in gaining His greatest blessings, referred to in the Holy Bible as “all that He hath”. Where much is given, much is required. However, He will not reveal all His laws and ordinances to us until such time we are spiritually prepared to receive and obey or perform them. Think of a six year old entering grade school. It would be much more harmful to put the average six year olds in the 8th grade. Why? They aren’t ready, and can’t be until they learn what is taught in 1-7 grades. Likewise we are not acquainted with additional laws and ordinances until we have learned and obeyed those we become acquainted with. As the scriptures say, line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little, etc. This is why those who enter LDS temples hold temple recommends. The recommend is an indication of obedience to laws and ordinances previously entered into as a result of spiritual growth which prepared them for entrance into the Lord’s temple. So, just as we would not put normal 1st graders in the 8th grade, the Lord will not open His Holy temples to those who have not prepared themselves to understand temple ordinances. I hope this helps you understand, and if you are LDS, I encourage you to prepare yourself to enter the Lord’s House.
FireTag, I don’t know if you saw Harkgrrrl’s post on Ordinances, but it is interesting…. It’s probably not what you were looking for, but go to http://mormonmatters.org/2009/09/15/the-genius-of-mormonism-ordinances/
[…] finally got around to one of my requests! Tara and I have been discussing several topics, such as the Priesthood Ban, Polygamy, and […]
Perhaps and in depth study of Alma 29:8.
I am a convert of 14 years. When I first ran into this verse I was overwhelmed with joy, unfortunately most people do not understand this verse the way I do. Perhaps the esoteric well from which I spawned runs a bit to eccentric for most.
Just a thought.
-D.
David,
Best of the New Year to you. Here is a worthy subject, for your thoughts.
The Word of Wisdom is my current interest, learning how it can guide eating in the modern food environment. I have started a blog to support, it is noncommercial, informative, and invites discussion.
Any help you can give would be appreciated. I would be happy to provide a guest post also.
Best to you,
Skip H.
Skip, I have already talked about the Word of Wisdom, though not in the depths you have. See http://www.mormonheretic.org/category/word-of-wisdom/
Why do Americans seem to be so anti socialist. From my reading of the scriptures it seems that God is a socalist. He admonished us to care for the needy ect. Some of the most anti socialist americans that i have talked to are LDS. As some one who is looking at america from the outside i find it really hard to comprehend, especially amongst church members. A future post on this issue would be great.
That’s a great idea. I’ve discussed consecration in the past, and I agree with you that it is like socialism. However, most Americans equate socialism with Marxism on the road to Communism, so that’s why Americans don’t like it. You might want to check some of my consecration and anti-polygamy posts. It seems that the anti-polygamy legislation was also aimed at stamping out consecration. The LDS got the message, and have grown up to embrace capitalism. (I have a Benson post that I think you’ll enjoy as well. Pres Benson was a vigorous anti-communist in the Eisenhower administration and linked socialism to communism.)
I decided after reading the articles on your blog that I would start my own blog . I have been creating a website form some time but hadn’t published it. Thank you MH for giving me the confidence to take the big step and publish my website and blog. I hope you enjoy it.
MH —
I’d look at doing a posting on the Salt Lake Tribune’s latest series on Utah multi-level marketing. Really interesting.
Here’s a link to the first in the series: http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/51175479-78/annual-companies-company-distributors.html.csp
@Diemazz
I agree, Diemazz, Alma 29:8 is one of my favourite scriptures. Could use a post with more detail. Brigham Young and Joseph Smith have said quite a few things relating to the truth found in other religions. “The Gospel Defined” is an interesting chapter from the Teachings of the Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young. MH, I’d love to see what you and others have to say about this concept.
It would be interesting to discuss B. H. Roberts comparison of the BoM and View of the Hebrews.
Great minds think alike! I just purchased the View of the Hebrews a few weeks ago. So far it isn’t as entertaining as Spaulding’s book, but I plan to review it. Do you have any sources for BH Roberts review?
I know of some partial lists. Let me get back to you on that.
Of course there is the full comparison in BH Robert’s book “Study of the Book of Mormon”
I don’t own this book, mainly because there is no iPhone or Kindle version.
The following is B.H. Robert’s summary of many of the similarities. I would verify these against BH Roberts “Study of the Book of Mormon” to be sure, but I believe the source to be valid. These were lifted from an essay written by Michael White who claims to have copied directly from BH Roberts book:
The material in Ethan Smith’s book is of a character and quantity to make a ground plan for the Book of Mormon: It supplies a large amount of material respecting American antiquities – leading to the belief that civilized or semi-civilized nations in ancient times occupied the American continents.
It not only suggests, but pleads on every page for Israelitish origin of the American Indians.
It deals with the destruction of Jerusalem and the scattering of Israel, as the Book of Mormon does.
It deals with the future gathering of Israel, and the restoration of the Ten Tribes, as the Book of Mormon does.
It emphasizes and uses much of the material from the prophecies of Isaiah, including whole chapters, as the Book of Mormon does.
It makes a special appeal to the Gentiles of the New World – having in mind more especially the people of the United States – to become the nursing fathers and mothers unto Israel in the New World – even as the Book of Mormon does, holding out great promises to the great Gentile nation that shall occupy America, if it acquiesces in the divine program.
It holds that the peopling of the New World was by migrations from the Old, the same as does the Book of Mormon. It takes its migrating people into a country where “never man had dwelt,” just as the Book of Mormon takes it Jaredite colony into “that quarter where there never had man been.”
In both cases the journey was to the northward; in both cases the colony entered into the valley of a great river; they both encountered “seas” of “many waters” in the course of their journey; in both cases the journey was a long one. The motive in both cases was the same – a religious one; Ethan is prominently connected with the recording of the matter in the one case, and Ether in the other.
Ethan Smith’s book supposes that his lost tribes divide into two classes, the one fostering the arts that make for civilization, the other followed the wild hunting and indolent life that ultimately led to barbarism, which is just what happens to the Book of Mormon Peoples.
“Long and dismal” wars break out between Ethan Smith’s civilized division and his barbarous division. The same occurs between Nephite and Lamanite, divisions drawn on the same lines of civilized and barbarous in the Book of Mormon.
The savage division utterly exterminates the civilized in Ethan Smith’s book; the Lamanites, the barbarous division of the Book of Mormon, utterly destroy the civilized division – the Nephites.
Ethan Smith’s book assumes for the ancient civilized people a culture of mechanic arts; of written language; of the knowledge and use of iron and other metals; and of navigation. The Book of Mormon does the same for its civilized peoples.
Ethan Smith’s book assumes unity of race for the inhabitants of America – the Hebrew race, and no other. The Book of Mormon does the same.
Ethan Smith’s book assumes that this race (save perhaps, the Eskimo of the extreme north) occupied the whole extent of the American continent. The Book of Mormon does the same for its peoples.
It assumes the Indian tongue to have had one source – the Hebrew; the Book of Mormon makes the same assumption for the language of its peoples.
Ethan Smith’s book describes an instrument among the mound finds comprising breast plate with two white buckhorn buttons attached, “in imitation of the precious stones of the Urim,” says Ethan Smith. Joseph Smith used some such instrument in translating the Book of Mormon called Urim and Thumim.
Ethan Smith’s book admits the existence of idolatry and human sacrifice; the Book of Mormon does the same.
Ethan Smith’s book extols generosity to the poor and denounces pride, as traits of the American Indian; the Book of Mormon does the same for its peoples. Ethan Smith’s book denounces polygamy, the Book of Mormon under certain conditions does the same as to David and Solomon’s practices.
Ethan Smith’s book quotes Indian traditions of a “Lost Book of God” and the promise of its restoration to the Indians, with a return of their lost favor with the Great Spirit. This is in keeping with the lost sacred records to the savage Lamanites of the Book of Mormon.
Ethan Smith’s sacred book was buried with some “high priest,” “keeper of the sacred tradition”; the Book of Mormon sacred records were hidden or buried by Moroni, a character that corresponds to this Indian tradition in the Hill Cumorah.
Ethan Smith’s book describes extensive military fortifications linking cities together over wide areas of Ohio and Mississippi valleys, with military observatory or “watch towers” overlooking them; the Book of Mormon describes extensive fortifications erected throughout large areas with military “watch towers” here and there overlooking them.
Ethan Smith’s book also describes sacred towers or “high places” in some instances devoted to true worship, in other cases to idolatrous practices; the Book of Mormon also has its prayer or sacred towers.
Part of Ethan Smith’s ancient inhabitants effect a change from monarchial governments to republican forms of government; Book of Mormon peoples do the same.
In Ethan Smith’s republics the civil and ecclesiastical power is united in the same person; this was a practice also with the Book of Mormon people.
Some of Ethan Smith’s peoples believed in the constant struggle between the good and the bad principle, by which the world is governed; Lehi, the first of Nephite prophets, taught the existence of a necessary opposition in all things – righteousness opposed to wickedness – good to bad; life to death, and so following.
Ethan Smith’s book speaks of the gospel having been preached in the ancient America; the Book of Mormon clearly portrays a knowledge of the gospel had among the Nephites.
Ethan Smith gives, in considerable detail, the story of the Mexican culture-hero Quetzalcoatl – who in so many things is reminiscent of the Christ; the Book of Mormon brings the risen Messiah to the New World, gives him a ministry, disciples and a church.
(Roberts 1992, p. 240-242)
In re blood atonement,
It has a past practice of early mormons, most notably Brigham Young and his devout followers to engage in blood atonement, a procedure whereby the members of the church who commit serious serious are slain by the members who are made of aware of their wickedness in order to offer a “sweet smelling aroma pleasing to the Lord†to atone for the sins which the blood of Christ does not cover or blot out. Why is this not a continued practice, and more importantly, why has such an extreme and blasphemous doctrine been taught by a prophet of the church?
A few citations can be found in:
Journal of Discourses vol. 1:83, 3:247, 4:219-20, 10:110, Brigham Young
and Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, pp. 133-138
Found this recent very interesting article on BBC News Middle East:
Early Christian relics discovered. “Books†written on lead leaves bound by lead rings.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12888421
@Canute
These lead plates have since been exposed as a crude forgery.
http://hamblinofjerusalem.wordpress.com/2011/04/01/jordan-metal-plates/
Tracy Hall Jr
hthalljr’gmail’com
I know that you’ve had an interest in the history of various sects of the Church of Christ. You might be interested in the timeline which I’ve been working on showing the lines of descent and dissent. http://radiobeloved.wordpress.com/2011/04/26/schismatic-timeline-preview/
This from Firetag: “I would actrually like to understand more about how the LDS view ordinances. I’d thought about putting something on the to-do-list for my own blog posts, since the CofChrist view is so different, but realized I know way too little about LDS views on the subject, and don’t expect I’m ever going to get a temple recommend.
Since you typed you don’t expect you’re ever going to get a temple recommend, I suppose you are either LDS and not progressing spiritually in order to obtain one, or you are not LDS but have been taught something about LDS temple recommends. Not knowing which, I will take the more simple road and presume you are not LDS. So here is my answer:
LDS view ordinances as part of our Heavenly Father’s plan for our eternal happiness. But He also has commandments (sometimes referred to as laws) which we must also obey. Keeping His commandments and performing His ordinances, regardless of how many commandments and ordinances there may be, are absolutely essential in gaining His greatest blessings, referred to in the Holy Bible as “all that He hath”. Where much is given, much is required. However, He will not reveal all His laws and ordinances to us until such time we are spiritually prepared to receive and obey or perform them. Think of a six year old entering grade school. It would be much more harmful to put the average six year olds in the 8th grade. Why? They aren’t ready, and can’t be until they learn what is taught in 1-7 grades. Likewise we are not acquainted with additional laws and ordinances until we have learned and obeyed those we become acquainted with. As the scriptures say, line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little, etc. This is why those who enter LDS temples hold temple recommends. The recommend is an indication of obedience to laws and ordinances previously entered into as a result of spiritual growth which prepared them for entrance into the Lord’s temple. So, just as we would not put normal 1st graders in the 8th grade, the Lord will not open His Holy temples to those who have not prepared themselves to understand temple ordinances. I hope this helps you understand, and if you are LDS, I encourage you to prepare yourself to enter the Lord’s House.
+1
Book of Mormon was written in SABELLIC language. LEHI (LERRI’s) trip started nearby ROME and they traveled to EGYPT through NILE: next to it they built the town NEFICH (not with PH as F, as there is no such thing in NEPHITIC=SABELLI’s), which yet survived and is alive (now it is Arabic “NAFICH or NAFIAH”) and became a neighborhood of ISHMAEL, a big Egyptian town which controls SUEZ CHANNEL at its middle. Also lands nearby Bitter Lake to the Red Sea were given to the Nephites in Egypt.
Other group of Nephites, in some 800 B.C. moved from NORTH Italy mixed with CELTS to conquer Great Britain. When crossing the channel they passed through an island DIEU or ADIEU, a Greek mythological Goddess for the waters, for Sabelli’s. As pushed by barbarians and Romans, Celts + Nephites moved to live in IRELAND and a group of them is yet living in a rectangle land named as NEPH-IN (“land of nephites”) and it is limited by the 4 tallest mountain peaks of Ireland (the NEPHIN’s) and their language (dialect) is a mixture of NEPHITIC=SABELLIC (proto-Latin) and CELTIC and English and their poetry is quite like of Jewish nature, very well recognized as such by Jews. I have an Irish relative… nice people. Others parents are from England.
The OTHER NEPHITES moved from EGYPT to JERUSALEM, when it started to reign the King Zedekiah. During such government Lehi remained living in Jerusalem, all his days. But Lehi and his family, with Ishmael’s family, had been working and earning big money in EGYPT, with big contract of building (revamping) a NAVIGATION CHANNEL from nearby today CAIRO town to the BITTER LAKE: a channel that existed before. Such channel became a BRANCH of NILE RIVER feeding into RED SEA: wide and deep enough to allow heavy loaded ships and big Army Navy. Herodotus described it. The Pharaoh King was Nechoh II who paid very well for construction and gave land to Nephites live in Egypt, as those that became possible to irrigate with the new channel.
Also Lehi and Nephi family members were aware about big ships and sail ships navigation (build in Egypt, under Nephi’s visits. According Herodotus, king Nechoh hired Phoenicians and Greeks to establish a Naval industry to build BIG SHIPS in Egypt… and one competition was set by King Nechoh between two fleets of big sail ships to make a complete turn around Africa Continent, departing from Nefich. They concluded their long Journey, but nothing is said about who was the winner. They described to Herodotus how strange it was to make the “U turn†at the very south of South Africa and Herodotus included such account in his report.
Thus probably Nephi traveled toward the very south of South Africa, to the place of so intense and common “torments, town of Cape today”, where Nephi was tied by thick ropes used to control sail canvas for propulsion). And after that it was a very fast trip (sailing) to NORTH America. Thus Nephi’s family moved out from Egypt to Jerusalem as rich and powerful/influent men.
In 1998 I made some work in Italy and doing SCIENTIFIC researches, as related to my old ancestors (the SABELLI’s, in Italy since some 3,000 years ago and that is known as had emigrated from GREECE, where they were SLAVES… Joel 3:6). Their language was not the TRUE GREEK, but a mixture with Phoenician and Hebrew, as writing from right to left and using CHARACTERS that quite usually were not GREEK CHARACTERS, but quite like some MIRROR of Greek Characters and SABELLIANS had a peculiar grammar not Greek, but with Hebrew rules/influence. Joel 3:6.
In 1998 I discovered, by so great SURPRISE, that the WORDS (as person’s names, mainly) that were not TRANSLATED, in fact were also in use in so ANCIENT SABELLI LANGUAGE, as in 500 to 800 B.C. and in names that continued to modernity, to modern Latin originated languages, with none up to some corruption. Thus MORONI and MORONE and MORRONI and MORRONE were quite POPULARLY USED, common names, in ROME, during Jesus Christ’s days. It was possible to discover that some translations in Book of Mormon are “WRONG”, in the sense that it was used a SOUND (PHONETIC) translation but not word meaning translation, to keep hide the language that was being translated. That is visible in many cases.
Thus it is possible to UPGRADE the Book of Mormon. Consider the word SHAZER. It is just a PHONETIC translation, meaning NOTHING in any language. But if you know SABELLI’s language you can understand immediately that the word is CHASER: big difference. It is in fact CHASE + R and it is read from right to left (as it was not translated…), as in SABELLIC. R is to say there is an ORDER (“verb”) to CHASE (also in Hebrew, which means “HUNT” (in barbarian languages, of those who invaded Great Britain after the Romans). you can see “The CHASE BANK of N.Y., of the Jews, just hunting clients and their money…”) and in FRENCH we have CHASSEUR, fruit of corruption, as the double SS (it would be used only for PERSONS, in early SABELLI=NEPHITIC) and also the U is in excess (result of better “sound, phonetics”). Thus the FRENCH word CHASSEUR in fact is just CHASER in old SABELLI’s=NEPHITIC’s language (they are the same). Thus CHASER = CHASE + R means one order to live eating just HUNTED ANIMALS, as birds, snakes, bears, ships, sea animals, etc. They had no more food…
By knowing that the NEPHITES had lived in ROME and that they had lived in EGYPT (quite clear in 1 NEPH 1.2 and 1.4 (they knew Egyptian language – we can concluded they lived long in Egypt…) and that they arrived in Jerusalem in the year Zedekiah became king and started his government… it was quite easy to locate the town they built (settled) in EGYPT: NEFICH and other big lands in Egypt. It is just a matter of SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH, EVALUATION, THINKING…. not of Angel’s revelation. All the subject was solved just using SCIENCE and good/fair REASONING.
Then it was the phase of LEARNING how it would work the LIST of CHARACTERS (known as CARACTORS, which is a SABELLIAN = NEFITIC word…) as to READ OLD TEXTS in NEPHITIC and also to WRITE MODERN TEXTS in NEPHITIC LANGUAGE, as to restored Book of Mormon on plates, again (or just some parts of such Book of Mormon). It is a way to show that HUMANS using their INTELLIGENCE, the right SCIENCE, can make things that the BACKWARD RELIGIOUS PEOPLE think is only possible with revelation.
If you become a member of MORMONS_BRASIL (I am the owner/MANAGER of such group), a YAHOO GROUP, with URL provided next:
http://br.groups.yahoo.com/group/mormons_brasil/message/1700
You are to see an ITALIAN TOMB, of some 2,500 years ago, in which it is written the name of a SABELLIAN PERSON, using the SABELLI’s CHARACTERS. It is on the top part of the entrance door of the TOMB, “DISCLOSED” in 1830 (should this mean some thing for those who understand when Book of Mormon started to be “DISCLOSED”?)
AND “above” the original inscription, cut on rock, of the name of the owner of the Tomb, is the TRANSLATION of such VERY OLD SABELLIAN=NEPHITIC name, using the LIST of CHARACTERS (“CARACTORS”) that Joseph Smith provided to USA scientist, ANTHON.
Then “below” the original inscription, cut on rock, is the TRANSLATION of such VERY OLD SABELLIAN-NEPHITIC name to our MODERN CHARACTERS, using available (in texts for students and researchers, in Museums, etc. as I saw in Italy) literature for translating SABINE’s CHARACTERS (some 600 to 800 years before Christ, in Rome region) and for translating OSCO’s CHARACTERS (some 400 to 500 years before Christ, in Osco wider region, including Rome).
The DIDACTIC RESULT, of so very distinct TRANSLATIONS, was absolutely the same.
Thus we have more evidences coming out that in FACT the SABELLIAN language and the NEPHITIC language in fact are just the SAME LANGUAGE for 600 B.C.
There are more evidences, as some CHARACTERS existed only around 600 B.C. and only in ROME, as a special type of “A”. It was plenty used in the list provided by Joseph Smith (as copy of CARACTOR from Gold Plates) to the USA scientist ANTHON. It IS QUITE LIKE A BIG AND SPECIAL MARK put on both type of LANGUAGES, as in on the two opposite sides of a cattle animal, to demonstrate it is UNIQUE. Just the SAME MARK and from the same CREATOR.
All drawings are available upon interest. As showing how to write MORMON, MORONI, ALMA, AMULON, etc. or to read such type of names from very ancient Italian inscriptions.
CELSO SAVELLI GOMES, M.Sc. University of California, Berkeley, 1978
Dear friends.
As if an exercise for translating very ancient NEPHITIC TEXTS (as they were also found outside ITALY), of some 2,500 years ago, into modern characters that are then used for translating the old resulting text (in modern characters) into modern text (translated). We are providing the following example of the below very ancient tomb of ORVIETO village, of 2,500 years ago (more examples are being provided/prepared). The process of converting MODERN TEXT into NEPHITIC TEXT in NEPHITIC CHARACTERS (“CARACTORSâ€) is the process backward, made in the opposite way, and it was already made for quite a lot of modern words published as NEPHITIC words/text, as MORONI, MORMON, ALMA, AMULON, etc. In fact an automatic translator program could be made for such translation, if the idea is to make some big translation backward, as writing quite like some text of BOOK OF MORMON on plates, in the original language (nephitic/sabellic). But it would be a wastage of time and effort, not being quite like DNA “translationâ€.
TOWN for tombs at ORVIETO-ITALY below inscriptions at door entrance tomb.JPG
and the URL address of the image:
It is an URL and thus make copy of it and paste it at the proper place for such URL command the computer. Then press “enterâ€.
Next you will SEE only the lower part of the above pictures, where you can see enlarged the very ancient name on top of the tomb, engraved/cut on rock.
You can see it was engraved the name of the ONWER of such specific TOMB at ORVIETO and it is written (cut) into the rock surface above the door for entering the tomb. Such writting is in very ancient SABELLI’s language, prior to the existence of LATIN language which HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SABELLI’s lanaguage. In fact LATIN was created (borrowed) from CLASSIC and STANDAR GREEK LANGUAGE and CHARACTERS, just to EXTERMINATE any evidence that one day the SABELLI LANGUAGE ever existed. It was made because ROMANS decided to EXTERMINATE any memory and evidence they had been, in the far away past, SLAVES in GREECE, sold by the hand of PHOENICIANS. See Joel 3:6 and SABELLI language was just such SLAVES’ language and characters.
name at tomb in ORVIETO with SMITH translation above and OSCO below name sendo feito.JPG
and the URL address of the image:
ANTHON caractors translated meaning.jpg
and the URL address of the image:
This LIST of CARACTORS is already some 10 years old, and thus is not updated version. But there are plenty and more specific sites on such “translationâ€.
Best personal regards, sincerely yours,
CELSO SAVELLI GOMES
@David
I was surprised by David’s comment on Aug.23, 2009 when he stated that the “Great and Abominable Church†is the “Holy Roman Catholic Churchâ€. I strongly disagree. I have a great amount of respect for so many of the beliefs and good works performed by the Catholic Church. The LDS Church has given much of its humanitarian aid through Catholic Charities (as well as Islamic organizations, the Red Cross etc.). Many of the Catholic positions on social/moral issues are in accord with those taught by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Sure there may be one or two LDS authorities that have characterized the Catholic Church as you have, but those statements are certainly not LDS doctrine and are inconsistent with the great majority of Church comments and actions toward the Catholic Church.
UPDATE: I blogged about this topic on March 17, 2013.
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