14 comments on “Acceptable Use of Cult/Not Christian”

1. Robert McKenzie September 21, 2012 at 11:37 am

   It is funny to me that almost 50 percent of the people think that the flds is a cult when they have the exact same belief that the Mormons have other than they still believe in having more than one wife. The Mormons in Utah Stopped plural marriages because they could not become a State and get federal benefits. The government told them they had to change or Utah could not become a state. Whats wrong guys. Did you delete my post so no one could read the truth. Did my post scare you?

2. Robert McKenzie September 21, 2012 at 11:41 am

   Why are you only leaving the post up that benefit you. What happened to the ones that say Joseph smith was a seer and a stone reader which the family practice old folk magic. If you want, I can look them up again on the LDS website and post them again.

3. Robert McKenzie September 21, 2012 at 11:45 am

   All of my post were relevant with this conversation. Just like the Mormons. Twisting the truth for there own benefit.

4. Mh September 21, 2012 at 12:16 pm

   Bob,

   I haven’t deleted anything. I try to keep conversations from drifting off topic. You have a shotgun approach to questions. I created a new post for you to ask any question. Please see that post titled Questions for Mormons.

   I thought you would like to see the poll results and that nobody uses your ridiculous definition of cult (which I felt deserved a post all it’s own). As for the flds, I actually agree with you, but you fail to recognize the LDS church had changed considerably since 1890. Nobody views the LDS church as extreme except for bigots.

   “Just like the Mormons. Twisting the truth for there own benefit.” cut the broad brush attacks. It makes you sound like a bigot and a jerk.

5. brandt September 22, 2012 at 8:43 am

   I hope this applies to the conversation, and not simply my own interests, but we actually had a pretty in-depth conversation about the concept of Mormonism and Cults over at Mormon Expression/Mormon Expositor. I’ll post links at the bottom of my comment, but I really think the term “cult” is something that needs to be re-evaluated. I read a book by a sociologist recently about Mormonism where he mentioned that “The term Cult is thrown around by many evangelicals to define those that aren’t them.”

   I really found that interesting. I really wonder if the term “cult” is akin to us throwing around the term “racist.” It’s a loaded term, manipulated to get a certain reaction out of people. It seems to me 9/10 it’s not used as a sociological term, it’s used to degrade a certain people, and therefore, it can’t be used in the proper context, where ALL religious could be considered to be a cult based on sociological definitions.

   Anyways, here’s our discussion – If you want to delete the links, MH, I’ll put that power in your hands:

   Part 1: http://mormonexpression.com/2012/05/07/episode-201-cults/
   Part 2a: http://mormonexpositor.com/2a-is-mormonism-a-cult-the-fearsome-follow-up/
   Part 2b: http://mormonexpositor.com/2b-is-mormonism-a-cult-the-fearsome-follow-up/

6. Mormon Heretic September 22, 2012 at 9:28 am

   I agree Brandt, Cult is such a loaded term that it is really not useful in a religious conversation, and evangelicals are the only ones that continue to use it. Nobody refers to the sociological definition, or we would talk about the Baptist cult, Catholic cult, etc.

   My feeling is that Evangelicals also call Mormons not Christian in the same light. It is a ridiculous assertion. Of course Mormons believe in Jesus, that he died on the cross and was resurrected, etc. These ridiculous assertions are followed by “well you believe in a different Jesus.” Ok, well yeah. But the assertion of non-Christian implies we don’t believe in Christ. That’s just flat out false. If someone wants to say that Mormons don’t follow historical Christianity, then I agree. If someone wants to say Mormons have different beliefs (perhaps heretical beliefs) then fine. But don’t imply that I don’t believe in Christ (which is what the term non-Christian implies), because that’s just flat out false.

   Is Mormonism closer to Buddhism or Christianity? That should be a no-brainer, but the non-Christian label makes it sound like we are closer to Buddhism. It’s a ridiculous label, and is meant to de-legitimize Mormons. It’s a polemic attack, not a factual one.

7. Robert McKenzie September 24, 2012 at 7:27 pm

   @Mh
   The one thing I have learned on this sight is that you love to call people names such as bigot and jerk. Again I have never once called you a name, which I am really impressed with you. and number 2 before I called someone a bigot and a jerk. I would at least try to answer all of there questions. Am I a jerk for saying that JS was a stone reader? As for being a bigot, I don’t agree with him for being a martyr. I have never called anyone a name, other than I don’t agree that JS was a prophet. How christian, I am impressed.

8. Robert McKenzie September 24, 2012 at 10:36 pm

   I have never once behaved badly on this site. All questions I have asked were quotes from mormon sites. I am not going to re-ask my questions, because I have already asked them once with the quotes and where you could find the quote. Am I a jerk for this? Am I a bigot for this? Shame on you? Can you tell me where I have behaved badly? I think you have behaved badly for name calling. I don’t believe in name calling. Just because, I don’t believe that your church is a true christian church, it does not call for name calling. I will not lower myself to your standards. I encourage you to stop the name calling, and challenge you to prove that your church is worthy of being a true christian church. Again, everything I believe is my opinion. Am I not entitled to my opinion as an American citizen. Or do I have to suppress my opinion on your behalf. I almost feel like a slave to you for not being able to express my opinion without name calling. You might as well call me anything you want, because I refuse to stoop that low. Please answer the questions that I have already asked.

9. Mormon Heretic September 24, 2012 at 11:54 pm

   Robert, I am not sure why you basically posted the same comment twice, but for the LAST TIME, I will address your ridiculous assertions. I will REPEAT it to make sure that I answer ALL your questions, so you don’t have to blame me for that again.

   I have never once called you a name,

   No, but you have called Mormonism a cult. As you can see from the poll results, currently 92% responded that a cult “is meant to show that the group is extreme or illegitimate somehow.” Only 1 person answer that “Yes it is a compliment” and 1 person said it was neutral. I assume that you were one of these 2 people. So Robert, your terminology of cult is offensive in the eyes of 92% of the people that answered the poll results. Take that into account when you unbelievably try to say that “I have never once called you a name”. Yes you did.

   I would at least try to answer all of there questions. Am I a jerk for saying that JS was a stone reader?

   Robert, I answered that question almost a week ago. Apparently you didn’t bother to read it. Let me make it easy for you. Click here for the answer. Before you make another stupid allegation, perhaps you should take time to read my answer. It may save you from embarrassing yourself.

   As for being a bigot, I don’t agree with him for being a martyr.

   This sentence really makes no sense. I didn’t call you a bigot because of your beliefs about Joseph or whether he was a martyr. You can believe anything you want to believe. I called you a bigot for what you said about Mormons, but apparently you still think that is not offensive. So, let me substitute the word “Jew” or “Judaism” for all the times I found your remarks offensive. Perhaps that will help you see that your remarks are offensive, because I assume that you would never make these bigoted remarks about Jews.

   1. [The Biblical prophet Joshua] is supposed to be a profit of god, which I do not believe a profit of god would have [destroyed the entire city of Jericho] or kill any one. Here you have this “Saint”, who supposedly is a profit of god was who [commit genocide and destroyed every man, woman, child, and animal in Jericho]. It almost sounds like the moffia today. The guy is a nut case. The [Jewish people base their religion on a 15 year old that was not happy in life and had an unwitnessed vision of god and had no physical proof of the [10 commandments], other than a [burning bush]? That is scarey.

   3. I have gone to many churches over the years, and this is the only one in our country that has had conflicts with people. I come from a huge [Jewish] Family. And if you are not [Jewish], you are treated like garbage. This is why I started studying the [Jewish] religion. All other faith welcomed me in with no secrecy. [Moses] sounded like a dangerous man to me. Another cult brainwashing people for there benefit.

   13. I only mentioned the word cult on your blog one time. The [Jewish] religion is considered a religious cult like the unification church. I by no means insulted you personally like you did me by calling me a liar. No where in any of my responses did I insult you personally.

   {here we go again, but it’s ok to call the Jewish religion a brainwashing cult. That isn’t antisemitism is it?}

   I did not make up any of the thing I wrote on here. They all came from your religions websites. I will be glad to look up the information and post it on here where I found it on your churches websites. I am one of those people who read everything. I don’t just read between the lines. Again, I am extensively studying your religion I am seriously interested to find out the truths about the church or not. I have been to [Jewish] churches several times in my life with cousins and even sat in on Priesthood meetings, which in my opinion were a little creepy. again, this is only because of my experience. It will take some time, because I went over a lot of documents. I will be back to share those with you.

   15. Just to share with you the definition of the word cult: A system of religious beliefs and rituals. I still don’t believe this is an insult.

   No, but 92% of the readers here do not believe it is a compliment or a neutral term. 92% believe is is meant to demean. I’d call that an insult.

   Now, that was just in the opening post. Let’s review the comments on this post that I find offensive (or at a minimum insensitive.)

   #3 Just like the [Jews]. Twisting the truth for there own benefit.

   Does this help you see that these specific remarks are bigot remarks? I know you didn’t say “Jew” or refer to “Joshua”, but can you see that similar comments would make Jews upset?

10. Mormon Heretic September 25, 2012 at 12:17 am

    Now to finish what your statements, so that I make sure I answered ALL your questions and stupid accusations.

    I have never called anyone a name,

    No, your said Mormons were a cult, and 92% of the readers here believe that is meant to show Mormons are extreme and illegitimate. Perhaps you should learn that this is an offensive term, despite your repeated denials. It is offensive, get over it. Welcome to the real world where people understand how to avoid offense.

    other than I don’t agree that JS was a prophet.

    Ok, fine. But don’t call him a nutcase, or like the mafia (not moffia). Would you say Jesus is a nutcase? Peter? Paul? Moses? Joshua? Ezekiel? Isaiah?

    I have never once behaved badly on this site.

    I think my previous comment shows this statement to be a false statement, and false on many comments.

    I am not going to re-ask my questions, because I have already asked them once with the quotes and where you could find the quote.

    Good, because I answered them almost a week ago. Please actually read my responses. I spent a lot of time, and it is completely obvious you didn’t bother to read a single response. Here is my first response (on whether I’ve been to a black church), my second response (on Joseph’s false charges and the seer stone), and my third response (on whether Joseph performed miracles), But it’s obvious you didn’t read them, even though they’ve been there almost a week! I guess you don’t read everything like you claim.

    Am I a jerk for this? Am I a bigot for this?

    No, you’re not a jerk for asking legitimate questions, and I have answered your legitimate questions. You’re a jerk for continually asserting Mormons are a brainwashed cult who believe in a nut case. That is offensive. Would you say the same thing about Jews and their belief in Moses? He killed an Egyptian (go check your bible). Is Joshua a nutcase for killing every man, woman, and child in Jericho? What say you?

    Shame on you? Can you tell me where I have behaved badly?

    Yes, read comment 9. Don’t ask me this question again. It is well documented several times in this specific post.

    I think you have behaved badly for name calling.

    Well, I’ll call you a nutcase since that isn’t considered an insult. Apparently you think it is a compliment.

    I don’t believe that your church is a true christian church, it does not call for name calling.

    I believe your Baptist church is a cult that is extreme, illegitimate, and full of nutcases that behave like the mafia. Does that sound complimentary to you?

    I will not lower myself to your standards.

    First cast the beam out of thine own eye, before you get the mote out of mine.

    I encourage you to stop the name calling, and challenge you to prove that your church is worthy of being a true christian church.

    Ditto for you. Quit the name calking and show me that baptists are a true Christian church.

    Please answer the questions that I have already asked.

    Please read the answers I have already written a week ago.

11. Robert McKenzie September 25, 2012 at 4:09 pm

    Actually,I appreciate your enthusiasm for your religion, and if I offended you, I do apologize, but the sad thing is you really don’t know me. I grew up in a poor neighbor hood where mostly of black and Hispanic kids. I was the minority in my neighborhood. I hated, and I use that word very strongly, anyone who was prejudice, I feel strongly for the freedom of religion as well as speech and my opinion. By the time I was in high school, I was going to school full time, and working construction with my father who had become successful during my high school years. I worked in the construction industry 12 years before becoming a correctional officer for 8 years. During that time, I went to school to become a Emergency Medical Technician. Living in the small town that I lived in at the time, I was also a volunteer firefighter. I actually saved a partners life and was recognized by the community. I don’t have to prove to you any of this as you don’t have to prove to me the validity of your religion. In high school, my favorite subject was American history. I never know what to ask the missionaries when they come by, and the do about every shift change (6 months). I started reading the book of Mormons, one given to me by an aunt always with the book mark on the famous Moroni chapter 10 vs. 4. After reading this and visiting the lds.org, the Mormon Heretic, BYU TV, the Joseph Smith papers, and being raised for fort years around Mormon family, The history of Joseph Smith and the church became fascinating to me. I never have believed that he Mormon religion is a true religion, and I am sure I am not the only one. That how ever is my freedom to believe as it is for you, without being scrutinized. I never said you were a bad person for being a Mormon. I just asked questions on some things. I read on these sites. I don’t care what you say about my church, because my church is not responsible for my salvation. My relationship with god is personal. You can ask any correctional officer who is a Mormon, if being called names bothers them. It does not bother me being called a bigot or whatever else you want to call me. What bothers me is that you, representing your religion would call somebody names, no matter what they called you back. Being raised up to the 8th grade in the poor part of town, I grew up and was friends races over the years, and I can guarantee you, that not one of them ever considered me a bigot. Mormon relatives included. They respected my opinion and I respected theirs. Shame on you.

12. MH September 25, 2012 at 5:21 pm

    Robert,

    After all that, I finally got a grudging apology (thanks) followed by another broad brush attack: “What bothers me is that you, representing your religion would call somebody names, no matter what they called you back.”

    Wow, you’ve upgraded me to official church spokesman now. I never claimed to be official church spokesman. Why do you paint everything so broadly? Do I say you are an official spokesman for the Baptist Church?

    What I find so interesting about you is the broad definition of cult you use (despite the fact that 92% of people here don’t agree with your broad definition), and your narrow definition of bigot. You seem to be perfectly happy calling everything a cult, but you want a narrow definition of bigot to only be defined as a racial characteristic. (Of course, the narrow definition of bigot makes you look better.) In your world, you don’t want to apply the label bigot to a religion. Let’s look at dictionary.com definitions of bigot:

    a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.

    To be a bigot means that you hold negative views of a group despite evidence.

    a person who is intolerant of any ideas other than his or her own, esp on religion, politics, or race

    So, the real definition of bigot includes both race and religion. I’d say the shoe fits on you quite well. If you don’t want to be called a bigot, then quit making intolerant remarks. Shame on you. (But I am really happy for you that you have black and Mexican friends. Good for you. I bet you don’t say that “What bothers me is that you, representing [Mexicans or Blacks] would call somebody names, no matter what they called you back.” I’ll bet you aren’t that offensive to your Mexican or Black friends. Am I wrong?)

    I also find it interesting that you refuse to address my point about Joshua. If you read the bible, please tell me why God wanted to massacre the entire city of Jericho, including the children. (Or am I the only one who has to answer questions here?) And if God wanted Jericho’s children dead, why do you find fault with Joseph for defending himself with a 6-shooter against a mob of 200 with rifles?

13. MeFromCali January 5, 2013 at 9:51 pm

    Why is it offensive to suggest that the LDS church is a cult? I am a currently disaffected, but formerly very active member of many, many years, and that’s how I see the church now. At the very least, it’s a moot issue, but certainly it can be discussed without anyone needing to be offended or be obtusely offending. You have to admit that the LDS church with its ‘sacred not secret’ apologetics with regard to the temple rituals, which would include the rites of the second anointing, is, to a fair, or at the very least, limited degree somewhat ‘cultish’.

    Hence, the secrecy, the ‘Strengthening the Members Committee’, the BYU Wilkinson days of students spies, and so much more is fairly meaty for the meal of rational discussion. When you examine the life of JS with regard to his secret polygamous and polyandrous ‘marriages’ and public denial — sorry, but ‘lies’, which brings up the issue of the countless missives and orations that speak of ‘lying for the Lord’, etc, if you can’t bring yourself to admit that, “Yeah, okay, well I suppose there is something somewhat cultish’ about the church, especially to non-members,” then you are either naïve, less than truthful, in denial, or…what (whew, that was long sentence)? There is nothing to be afraid of or offended about if someone refers to the church as a ‘cult’. You can disagree by calmly and intelligently putting forth your reasons for not doing so, but for heaven’s sake, don’t play the ‘I’m offended’ card — ‘You’re banned!). That’s just lame.

14. Mormon Heretic January 5, 2013 at 9:53 pm

    MeFromCali,

    I moved your comment here where it makes more sense. I feel like I’ve already answered the question, so there’s nothing for me to add.