My brother died in a car accident in May 2006. His family was badly injured as well. His death was an emotionally painful experience for me. As part of my coping, my mother gave me a copy of a book titled, The Message, by Lance Richardson. It gave me some comfort, though certainly didn’t relieve very much of my pain.
Lance is a mormon. In his youth, he was recruited to play college football, but some serious medical issues drastically changed his life. He was in and out of hospitals for the rest of his life, and died in 2004 at age 42. During one of his hospital stays, he was put in a medically induced coma, and had a near-death experience. He saw many of his relatives who had passed on before, and was able to visit his family who was grieving for his poor health.
I want to relate 2 passages from the book, and ask for comments. Lance has a cousin named Randy, who had died a few years before from leukemia.
“I remembered when I left to come here,” Randy continued. “I had suffered so long that it was a welcomed rest to leave my bodily pain, but, oh how I missed my family at first. I wonder if it was right for me to have died. Then I was shown what is about to happen in your world. And it was explained to me that certain members of each family chose, long ago, before this life, to die and come to this realm that they might better help their families endure what is about to happen.”
Randy’s expression changed to one of reverence. “There are many powerful, wonderful spirits who are being called home right now, that they can better help their families prepare for that which is about to take place in your world. One of the major reasons man of us are here is to serve and help those in mortality….
“Lance, do you understand what I am saying to you? I have helped you many times in your life. I have been given assignments on several occasions to assist and inspire you.”
Randy then shared several stories of times when he had helped me. Each was a time I could remember, and I became deeply thankful to God, to know He had sent someone whom I loved so much to help in those times when I had needed help so desperately. And again I gained a greater appreciation for family and its eternal function….
I was deeply moved. I had never understood nor thought of how God delivers assistance to us. With billions of children, what more perfect plan could he use than through righteous family members? It made me think about how often I may have been given inspiration from God through ministering “family” servants of God. I could believe it was truth. And once again I felt that burning warmth inside, testifying to me that it was.”
Then there is another experience, that I find eerily similar to my brother.
we came upon two friends of mine who had died almost exactly one year before. They had been notified I was there had had come to say hello. It was wonderful to see each of them. Both looked so good. One had died of cancer, while the other had been caught in an avalanche while snowmobiling. It had been difficult for their families and friends to lose them. So, it was particularly good to see them again….
I asked my friend, whom we will call Rick, how he was doing.
“I absolutely love it here!” Rick began. “But my wife’s pain is hurting me.” I knew she had been having a very difficult time coping with his loss. They are the parents of five children, which made it all the more difficult for her to handle all of this alone. “Lance, you need to go talk to her and let her know that it was right that I died. I know that now.” He then shared how it had been difficult for him to accept when he first found that he was dead.
“But after they escorted me into this world and showed me the plan for me and my family, I knew that it was right.”
We talked of his family, especially of his children, and how he is able to help them in ways he could not have from our world. The work with his family was a very important reason for why he had died when he did.
So, my first question is this. Has it ever occured to you that the Holy Ghost might be a member of your family? Are there any theological problems with this implication?
Second, Rick implies that he could help his family more from the spirit world than he could do in life, yet his family was obviously struggling. How do we reconcile this with the statement from “The Family: A Proclamation to the World” which says ‘Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother…. I will add that it says “Disability, death, or other circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation”. But to me it seems rather clear that children are entitled to be reared by a a father and mother, and it seems to me that God’s first choice is to have fathers rear their children. Why does God make exceptions such as my brother, Rick, and Lance?
Mormon Heretic 
Firetag:
You open a can of worms with this concept because there would be no end to the physical copies of ones self. Past, present, and future would contain an infinate number of ones self, with no original copy. Or does something put a limit on the amount? Your “experiences” suggests a one way communication process. When does one become fully aware of the collective and can communicate with others, as you were contacted? Are there “rules of communication”? Suppose, you were to pass on from this world, – could a “con man or fool” copy of yourself somehow contact your loved ones? How could you prevent it? – it goes on and on. What a nightmare!
Sxark:
I didn’t open the can of worms. I just reported that the worms are loose. Spaces with infinities have interesting properties, and the notion of physical copies of ourselves is hard to avoid under most of the major current theories of cosmology. Entire parallel universes are usually predicted, often for multiple independent reasons, and they are not actually forbidden by any competing theories.
I’m sorry I didn’t respond to your earlier post. I was in the process of doing so when a piano delivery interrupted me; then when I tried to get back there was a problem to the link to a second page of comments. So I’ll take your more recent comments first.
You are right that there need be no end to the physical copies of oneself. We aren’t even entitled to claim that we are the originals. So if we have spirits under conventional Christian theology, we have no basis for saying those copies do not, just as they have no basis for saying we do not.
So the interesting question becomes how are our spirits related to theirs? It’s not obvious why the only thing that should matter to a spirit’s separate identity is the location of its physical counterpart in spacetime. So I am suggesting an alternative that people may not have considered in earlier centuries, because their understanding of the physical world had not advanced far enough.
We would not be in control of the communication process, just as the mind has far more control over and understanding of the neuron than a neuron has understanding of or control over the mind. God/Christ/Holy Ghost ultimately remain in control, with how much control gets delegated to what subsidiary agents posing essentially the same questions in the spiritual realm as it does in the physical. We’ve already seen a number of ideas about that on this thread.
You ask earlier why this was not revealed anciently. Well, I would suggest that IF The Book of Moses is really a sensing by Joseph of what Moses saw, than it WAS revealed anciently; Joseph simply had no basis to understand what he was seeing yet. Neither did Moses. (Remember, the Book of Moses has God basically telling Moses, “now focus on this world.”)
But what if God hadn’t revealed it earlier? You have to keep in mind that Christianity, Judaism, and Islam have been doing quite nicely living with a cosmology that really had to make only minor adjustments for millnnea. Even the church that tangled with Gallileo didn’t care about the CONTENT of the new solar system. They cared only about whether he acknowledged the authority of the church to decide what was true.
So this is the important point I want to make: Mormonism is about the only significant religion in the western world that draws major BEHAVIORAL implications for how its adherents should live in this world because of its views about the relationship between physical and spiritual realms. Mormonism has its own cosmology, and that cosmology has been used to underlie a belief system in ways other Christian denominations do not use cosmology. The beliefs tied to that cosmology are among the most attractive and most troublesome in the faith.
Mormon cosmology ties together the importance of family, the authority of priesthood, the roles of males and females in the family, the “status” (sorry, no better term) of married versus singles, marriage within the faith to marriage outside the faith, the size of families, and most controversially today, sexual identity. It affects Mormon families in a way that worrying about whether creation happened in 7 twenty-four hour periods no longer does.
In the past, Mormon cosmology has been used to justify the number of husbands and wives one should have, or to justify different religious status by race.
So now, in the Restoration movement, cosmology is important, and we need to be sure we are interpreting things correctly. I’m not “evangelical” about getting anyone to believe this interpretation. I have no dog in this fight until people start getting hurt. But for those who are troubled by some of the cosmology-derived beliefs but find others extraordinarily compelling, thinking about relationships between the physical and spiritual this way may be helpful.
I offer it in that spirit.
Firetag:
Under this scenerio, is it possible that an “evil twin or con-man” replica of a departed loved ones self, could contact you – giving you advice to do this or that, instead of the actual departed loved one? How could you tell? What could prevent this? Perhaps, there is more to the reason why King Saul was commanded, by God, to put to death those people that spoke with the dead.
sxark:
The idea is one spirit, many bodies. There is no evil twin’s spirit to contact you. There is only the real you having different mortal experiences and making different mortal choices. Think of your mind “telling” your finger to move.
My mind is now mush – need time to think this thru.
Thanks for taking the time to think it through. There’s a post on my blog on the subject “You’ve Read this Post Before” that I put up several weeks ago with some of the links to the physics behind parallel universes included in it, including an entire Q&A by an expert in the field. It, of course, does not deal with any “spiritual” implications of the physics. Those things we have to study through on our own, the same way believers in previous generations had to incorporate new scientific findings into their previous faith views.
Again, the basic analogy is: one mind is a collective property of many neurons; one spirit is a collective property of many bodies.
Fire Tag and sxark:
You know, I am finding this discussion of parallel universes and ‘one spirit, many bodies’ very fascinating! Being one who is very into science fiction, for example, any movie, book, or tv series with the word ‘star’ in the title, well, I do tend to just stare at the stars at night and reflect upon all the possibilities.
So you know, I am LDS myself, and I do have a very strong testimony of the Church’s teachings. BUT, I’m always open to discussion and new ideas.
First of all, thank you for your well wishes, I very much appreciate them. I’m happy to let you know that I am quite happy now, and, this not having been my first experience with a ‘broken heart’ it was indeed much easier to cope with this time.
Going along with the idea that there are many bodies and many experiences that sort of add up to the whole soul, or at least I think that’s the gist of the idea that was being portrayed in all of the above comments, I do agree that a person is a sum of all the experiences one has. Therefore, I accept readily all experiences I have, including the painful ones. As it says in the Book of Mormon in 2 Nephi chapter 2 I believe it is, there must be opposition in all things. So, how could we appreciate all the joyful moments if we haven’t had any of the painful ones?
Anyway, that was actually just an idea that occurred to me just now, but, to help ease sxark’s mind a little, I propose this idea: There is only one soul, comprising of one physical body and one spiritual body intertwined. The Holy Ghost, being a Personage of spirit, is able to communicate with our spirits universally because He Himself does not have a body. Therefore, we feel His influence much as we do the warmth of the sun.
But, back to the subject of parallel universes, I do agree that there are infinite possibilities of what may have happened with each decision we’ve ever made, and God being who he is and knowing all, He knows each of those possibilities. Knowing this helps Him help us make the right choices. Now, I don’t wish to argue the point of parallel universes at all, for all I know there really may be another ‘Korinth’. If so, I can only hope that there is a much better Korinth than that one I am.
So, here is what I propose: God has so many creations, so many worlds, and so many children, that while I don’t agree that there is more than one Korinth by any means, I do believe that because of the endless number of children that God has, there simply has to be other children of His that are so similar to myself or so like me as to seem as though it’s a copy of me. But, outside of my own religious views and beliefs, logically I believe that this idea makes much more sense.
I do know, even outside of the LDS religion, that nothing is finite. There simply can’t be a way that when you look out at the universe that there is an end to it. Knowing this, I believe that our Heavenly Father, while being an infinite Being Himself, still wants us to learn and grow, and, well, He’s going to keep things simple for His children here on earth. I believe that while there are certainly many ideas that can ‘turn our brain to mush’ as you stated, God, being the perfect Being He is, must want us to understand what He is trying to teach us through all of His servant’s who have been and are still on the earth.
Anyway, those are a few of the ideas I propose. Even if there isn’t any belief in those ideas, it’s still something to think about! Ya’ll have a good day!
FireTag, how do you square your parallel universes idea with LDS D&C 88:15 or the Coc version section 85 (Don’t have the verse, but I suspect it is close to 15 as well)?
“15 And the spirit and the body are the soul of man. “
Firetag & Korinth:
I was struck by your statement on p.1 #47 “I believe we are often sensing our OWN spirits signaling our physical selves that there are things we need to do or leave undone”.
Since this requires an intelligent sender – I went on my tangient.
However, your answer on p.2 #2, partly answers my question – when you suggest that “God might not have revealed this earlier” – which explains why the concept is not taught in any of the 3 world religions that worship the “One God”.
Korinth has another answer, in that, the Holy Ghost has the power to cummunicate with all spirits.
Perhaps the concept is not yet important, when it comes to the salvation of mankind on this planet. The “prime directive” of the “One God”, as stated in Moses 1:39…”This is my work and glory – to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man”…together with Moses 1:31,35,and 37, explains quite a bit. I think we will have to wait for that time when “all the mysteries of the heavens and earth will be revealed”.
Well, for FireTag, this is how I understand it. Analogy: The Spirit is our hand. Our body is our glove. When we die, our ‘glove’ gets buried and returns as dust to the earth. Then, when we’re resurrected, our spirit and our body are reunited again, never to be separated again. So, the ‘soul’ is our body and spirit together. I’m not exactly sure if that’s what you were getting at, but that is what the soul is. But no, I don’t believe there’s more than one ‘glove’ for each hand. I did like the analogy you used to explain the concept though. I’m good with concepts.
Here’s another thing I believe: While there isn’t more than one physical copy of myself, I do believe in parallel universes. How else could God achieve his work if there weren’t parallel planes coexisting within each other? I have felt many other spirits throughout my life, and the veil as we call it was very thing, much like when your grandmother came and visited your daughter. There’s also a scripture supporting this, and while I don’t know the reference, it simply says ‘There are kindgoms within kingdoms.’ Again, not a scriptorian by any means, but one of my old institute teachers often introduced new ideas like this to those of us he thought would understand them.
I mean, who’s to say how small matter gets? Even beyond what we know about physics and such, what’s between the spaces between two neurons? Or, reverse that? Who’s to say that what we can see in space with our hubble telescope or any other scope that there aren’t yet larger kingdoms? Like, that part at the end of Men in Black for example. There isn’t an alien is playing marbles with our universe by any means, but yet, what truly is out there?
Another thing: Our spirits reside within our bodies. THE Spirit communicates with our spirits. Our spirits can sense other spirits. So, our spirits are matter and are very much real, only more pure, more fine, something we can’t perceive with our physical eyes. Going along with this idea of THE Spirit communicating with our spirit, I believe that in that process, there is sometimes a physical response. I myself get goosebumps when I have a spiritual experience, and many times the chills, or the hair standing on the back of my neck. And it’s not the creepy chills like they depict in horror movies, but more like when someone says something really powerful to you, like the first time you hear someone say ‘I love you’.
Yet another idea: There is a scripture in Hebrew’s that states ‘Though there be lords many and gods many, to us there is but one God.’ I gather that there are in fact many God’s and many Christ’s and many Holy Ghost’s, but, ‘to us there is but one God.’ So, who’s to say that all these heavenly beings and all these planes of existence don’t overlap one another? Just as a personal opinion, I gather that all these heavenly beings are those who once were like us, progressed and became gods and goddesses, and, being perfect beings, who’s to say they don’t communicate with each other? Sort of a ‘Hey, how are your children doing?’ kind thing.
Anyway, sorry, I’m getting carried away again with all the ‘infinite’ thinking. Like I said in another post, it all goes back to the basics and that’s all that is important. And like sxark stated, we will have to wait for the time when all things will be revealed. So, just keep workin’ on it! The closer we can become and the more we can learn about our Heavenly Father in this life, the better off we’ll be!
MH: I expand my concept of the body to include all of the copies and variants of me whereever they occur in spacetime. (It does raise some interesting questions about just where I stop and someone else starts, but that’s true of electrons as well — if you’ve ever looked at some of the pictures of atoms modern instrumentation can reveal — so I’m not sure that’s anything new about reality.)
More interestingly, what you are concerned about is really another version of the conventional question about what age are you in heaven. Time comes in chunks so small that there are quadrillions of quadrillions of trillions of them per second. So in our single life experience. Does God keep only one of those instants in resurrection and toss the others? Or does He keep the best of us at all points of life in some sort of blended form. If it’s the latter, than doing the blending throughout the rest of spacetime seems to pose no fundamental problem to me.
Because we are bound to time in a linear fashion, we can’t help but think that things in different times and places are different things. But from the “other side” things may not appear that way. I suspect that there is a dual description of reality where dissimilarity of information content plays the role of distance in space, but I’ll stop there before everyone’s eyes glaze over.
Korinth:
Well, the question of whether theor is One God or many in a parent-child progression has always been a point of departture between LDS and CofChrist. We follow the more mainstream Christian idea and do not equate Celestial Glory with becoming creators of new universes.
I do think the ideas I’m personally working with get some of the Mormons’ unique beliefs to pop out in a natural way. Multiple spouses in heaven? Well you had single wives on multiple earths? Monogamy on earth; polygamy in heaven. Millions of children in heaven? Well, you had/are having/will have millions of children throughout spacetime.
Gender and gender attraction in the pre-existence or in heaven? Well, there’s room here for the overwhelming probability of being one gender, yet nothing to marginalize the copies where things were different. Room for the singles, the children, the divorced, the widowed, or the remarried. Room for the nuclear and the blended and the extended families. The two sides of the “veil” see things from different perspectives, but they’re seeing the same thing, IMHO.
The spiritual and physical are truly one soul: they make each other and develop together.
I’ll stick with p.2 #9.
Fire Tag:
This does feel very similar to a discussion I once had with another CofChrist member. Pastor actually. I find that the members of this church are incredibly intelligent people, as you seem to be as well. But, I’m afraid that while I do like intellectual/theoretical/conceptual discussions, and I very much enjoy trying to imagine what is out in the universe that I’ll one day get to explore, I always fall back on the basics. When it comes down to what really matters, I don’t waste valuable time getting lost in what ‘may be’ but, I always have to return to my purpose for being here.
Multiple spouses in Heaven? There may be those in the universe who have that, but with what little understanding I have now in this life, I don’t think I’ll be wanting another spouse. I’ll stick with the one. Single wives on multiple earths? That kind of leaves the feeling of being unfaithful to all of them, or, only being able to be with one of them at a time, which is something a ‘god’ wouldn’t do. Millions of children? Well, there’s millions, BILLIONS, here on earth, so of course there are in Heaven.
Gender attraction in the pre-existence? Of course there was. I believe that I have already met my future spouse in the pre-existence, and that one day we will be led to each other. Or, maybe we already have and it’s simply a matter of timing and God’s will. One gender? Definitely not. Our very existence here on earth is a model for the larger picture. Earth is a training ground, a proving ground, whatever you want to call it, and the family relationships we have here on earth are, or maybe aren’t but should be, a way for us to learn and prepare for the life to come.
Again, not sure of the reference, but there is a scripture in which the Lord is explaining that ‘All is before me, everything that was, now is, and will be’. God exists outside of time. With the understanding that He has of natural laws, time being one of them, He is able to keep all things in order. He is aware of everything on every level. Again, an INFINITE being, and one that we can’t possibly comprehend while in this mortal existence. Alpha and Omega, those kind of statements.
God, being an infinite being, must continue to progress. But, if He is already perfect, which He most definitely would have to be, otherwise He would cease to be a god, cease to be God, how then does He continue to progress? How can He both already have reached perfection, and yet at the same time continue to progress? You and I are the answer. God continues to gain glory when His children become like Him.
Therefore, as sxark states in p.2 #9, Moses 1:39 reads ‘This is my work and my glory, to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.’ Helping us become like Him truly is His purpose. We will are all immortal, we will always exist, but our choices that we make here on earth, and also the ones we made in the pre-existence, as well as those we’ll make after this life, will decide whether we are entitled to eternal life. (And yes, I am aware that may very well open another can of worms when it comes to faith, works, and grace)
Here’s what it comes down to: agency. We have the agency to choose for ourselves what we’ll become and how far we’ll progress. We have the right to decide for ourselves whether or not we’ll bother with following God’s ways. We have the agency to choose whether or not we’ll allow Christ’s Atonement to have affect. He suffered for our sins, yes, but it is still up to us to decide whether we’ll use the gift of repentance or not. He suffered for us knowing full well there would be many who would not accept His sacrifice.
I’ll admit, I’m feeling as though I should post these things for a reason. As to what that is, I’m not sure. But, again, while there are infinite possibilities that exist, we ourselves are mortal and finite. While we should try to understand and learn all that we can, we should stick with what we know, namely what is taught in the scriptures. I have never read or heard anything referring to ‘parallel universes’ in any known scripture, or in any talk given by those I believe have the authority to teach those things, therefore, I won’t dwell on that possibility. I will continue to try to do the Lords work, and aid in bringing about man’s, and woman’s, eternal life.
Korinth:
You have spoken well. Especially, your last paragraph and, if I were you, I would never forget that last paragraph, for these internet blogs are very treacherous and will challenge you to your core, at times.
But, perhaps you already know that.
@sxark
No problem Sxark. It seems you’re having plenty to engage in with Anthony Larson elsewhere at the moment. I’m watching the fun (but don’t know what snacks are permitted under current interpretations of the word of wisdom while I watch).
Korinth:
As I said, I’m not evangelical about getting people to believe this or any other interpretation of cosmology — unless it becomes a theological error that justifies hurting people. Misinterpretation of Mormon cosmology HAS been used to justify hurting African Americans in the past. Some percentage of Mormons question whether similar misinterpretations are hurting Mormons today. If these ideas help them, fine. If they do not help you at this point of your life, that’s fine, too.
Korinth:
I should at least give you the scriptural reference, so I’ll quote the following portion of my own blog post “You’ve Read this Post Before” that contains the Scripture:
Both the Latter-day Saints and Community of Christ contain within their canons what the former calls “The Book of Moses” and publishes as a single document within the Pearl of Great Price. The CofChrist splits the same material into several component parts, which it includes within portions of Genesis in the “Inspired Version” (Joseph Smith Translation) of the Bible and/or as independent sections of its Doctrine & Covenants.
The material includes the following excerpts:
“…Moses cast his eyes and beheld the earth, yea, even all of it; and there was not a particle of it which he did not behold, discerning it by the Spirit of God. And he beheld … many lands; and each land was called earth and there were inhabitants on the face thereof. …And the Lord God said unto Moses: ‘For mine own purpose have I made these things …And worlds without number have I created. …For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them…The heavens they are many, and they cannot be numbered unto man; but they are numbered unto me, for they are mine. And as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof even so shall another come; and there is no end to my works, neither to my words.'”
So both modern cosmology and Restoration prophecy are converging on a notion of “worlds without number inhabited by humans”.
I am suggesting that there is a way to interpret the above Book of Moses passages that may be helpful to some Mormons in growing in their understanding of God, if not to others.
sxark:
Thank you for the encouragement. I do actually have some personal experience with how treacherous some ideas can be. I once had a bout with a pastor of another church, and he would go very far back into history, and translation, and original text, and I noticed, he was getting lost in all of his own interpretations and ideas. Granted, very intelligent individual, but without having the spirit of prophecy in which the Bible and other manuscripts were originally written, we should be very wary indeed of how we interpret things.
As I understand it, some original Greek words can be translated 9 different ways, therefore giving many interpretations of the same scripture. But, I propose that there are those who are called and authorized, in the same manner they were in the Bible and other canon, who can interpret these things, and are called by God to do so, and share them with the rest of the world. At the same time, I believe that there are those who not only interpret what previous servant’s of God have spoken and written, but that there is also continuing revelation. Such is how the Latter-Day Saint church is.
The reason modern cosmology is beginning to come to have many of the same ideas as restoration prophecy is because as the truth is taught, so does intelligence increase. Men begin to learn and grow. Take for example the time known as the dark ages. Christ and His apostles were rejected, and Christ’s church fell away. It was prophesied this would happen in many of Paul’s writings. And, with the truth being twisted, or simply not being taught, men digressed. Became primitive almost.
As the time period of the Renaissance began, and men began to seek for truth once more, people such as Martin Luther or many of the Reformers began to realize that what they were being taught was not true. To keep a long story short, those men helped set in motion the events that would allow for the restoration of the gospel. And where did that restoration take place? In a place where there was freedom of religion. In the U.S. And, does anyone notice that in the early 1800’s and on, the human race has begun to advance, until the point where now it’s commonplace for something that can change millions of lives to be developed almost constantly?
One idea that I have is this: It is prophesied that when Christ returns that ‘every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess’ and we will all see Christ with our own eyes. How is this to be accomplished? Through modern technology. We are reaching an age where communication around the world is almost instant. I’m rather excited to see all this progression myself, because I believe that once we have reached a certain technological stage, and once other prophesied events have occurred as they are now occurring, that that is when Christ shall come again.
I appreciate very much what we are learning from modern cosmology, because when I look out into space, or at images of pictures taken by the hubble telescope, I see God’s work taking place. Worlds being created. New dominions being formed. Anyway, the point I’m getting to is that the time is soon when we will all have to make a choice as to which side we will choose. It is inevitable. With all the corruption in world governments, with all the atrocities that men are able to commit, with all the ‘wars and rumors of wars’, we should choose now who we will follow. And, I personally know that it is through Christ that we will all be redeemed.
Anyway, I look forward to further comments or questions! Ya’ll have a blessed day!